GreenRope vs. Keap CRM

First of all, I would like to thank Mr Schaeffer for all the time he spent writing his comparison of InfusionSoft and GreenRope. I know being a consultant is hard work, and he no doubt spent a long time thinking about this comparative analysis. We here at GreenRope feel that a fair comparison is welcome by anyone at any time.

A few months ago, I personally asked Mr Schaeffer to make a fair, independent review of InfusionSoft and GreenRope, to which he agreed. (I recall signing up for a free demo around late March/early April 2013 and then contacting them to learn more about becoming certified in their software to expand my offerings. [I am an affiliate of many "competitive" programs such as Ontraport and HubSpot because I realize not everyone is right or ready for Infusionsoft.] We had a nice discussion but I did not have the bandwidth at the time to become certified in GreenRope and haven't explored it or logged into their software since.) I suppose some bias has to be expected when someone writes a comparative review that includes “…no single person in the world sells more Infusionsoft than I do.” (I never hide the fact I'm an Infusionsoft Consultant anywhere.) I was just hoping the bias would be just a teeny bit less in your face. (Ditto for the GreenRope comparison on their own site. Maybe they aren't "in-your-face," but I see inaccurate reviews on a corporate site as a form of passive aggression. Excuse me for being passionate.) I have to say that I have a lot of respect for InfusionSoft and what they have accomplished to date, and if anyone there were to contact us and provide concrete examples of how our comparison is inaccurate, I would be more than happy to adjust our comparison webpage. (Ahhh...didn't I just do that above? Nevermind. Instead you ask me if I have the "courage" to post your rebuttal. I guess the answer to that is "yes." "Courage?" Now who's being "in your face?" But you are passionate about your business, as am I, so I'll grant you that bit of attitude.)

This is the first “independent” review I have ever read that contains both personal insults and calls to action to pay the reviewer for consulting time. (Where am I asking anyone to pay me for consulting time?) I’m curious as to whether InfusionSoft knows this certified consultant is spreading this kind of rhetoric around the Internet, and if that is in line with their strategy.

 

 

In an effort to address the inaccuracies and epithets embedded within Mr Schaeffer’s review, I feel compelled to set the record straight. I started GreenRope in 2000 with a vision of helping businesses be more successful through better ways to manage and market themselves. We have remained a relatively small business, growing organically and carefully, and focusing on providing as much value as we can to our almost 4,000 global customers.

So I see it with some sense of irony that Mr Schaeffer insults a small business and its employees while at the same time attempting to promote the idea that he helps small businesses. (It is unfortunate because I, too, am a small business and I love helping small businesses but if a cute poodle begins attacking one of my children I will defend my child. Parents can appreciate that. An attack is an attack.) We believe that the size of a business (or the amount of capital infused into it) doesn’t necessarily make it better. (Agreed.) At GreenRope, we believe providing more value should be the goal of every business, and we work every day to help our clients realize that value. I have a feeling if you asked the founders of InfusionSoft, they would say the same thing. (They would.)

I feel it appropriate to point out that my intent with this writing is to take a higher ground. (By challenging my "courage"?) None of this is intended as an insult (although I do think poking a little fun at people when they say things that are funny is merited). I certainly don’t want to start a dramatic battle of wits with a self-proclaimed poster child for Ritalin! (Being passionate is a fault of mine. Poking fun is fine. Bring it on. I let my daughters put flowers on my head and did a little open mic night back in June 2013. But that Ritalin comment is below the belt. I said "If I was 9 today!" Come on, Lars!)

1. One of the first points made by Mr Schaeffer is about our Quick Start program, something we offer to our clients as a way to help them get started with using GreenRope. InfusionSoft offers their version, called a Kick Start program. We have many options to choose from, so that companies can choose the plan that best suits them. We offer free “how to” support with personalized screen-sharing, chat, a searchable knowledge base, videos and tutorials, but sometimes people want a little more. Mr Schaeffer believes having flexible (and less expensive) Quick Start options is a bad thing. I suppose what one man calls “trick or ruse”, we think of as better serving our customers. If having customers pay less for services with more options available to better serve them is a trick, then call me David Copperfield because I’ll do that all day. (Ahhh...I stand by my analysis above. Just because someone offers "free" software doesn't mean it's free. Your time is worth a lot. Getting started with programs like GreenRope and Infusionsoft is a huge departure from the norm of Salesforce or Sugar or ConstantContact or Outlook or Excel spreadsheets. You need help to get going quickly. Infusionsoft went from free setup to $5,000 setup to free setup to the current $1,999 setup. Retention and, most importantly, utilization is way up in the current model as compared to the free model that was in place a few years ago. Entrepreneurs are busy. We need guided help from experts to grow quickly. Henry Ford taught the world that as did Napoleon Hill, Michael Gerber, Jack Welch, et al. Are you really doing someone a favor by letting them divert their time and energy into learning a new system all alone "for free" when you know they'll be better served by having them invest in some professional assistance up front? I'd love to see how long it takes the average GreenRope user to pay for help and how much they pay.)

 

 

2. In his litany about how great InfusionSoft’s support is, Mr Schaeffer mentions you get free support for a year. With GreenRope you have free support for as long as you own a GreenRope account. I’m not sure why he brings up something that exposes a revenue model with limited long-term support. Why would you stop supporting a client after a year? Unless I’m misunderstanding something, I’m missing why that’s a benefit. (Where did I say that? If I did it's a typo but I doubt it. All I said was "ditto" on support. Infusionsoft provides free lifetime support and they always have since their founding, and since I started using it in late 2008. Lars, What are you reading?)

3. GreenRope does not charge for additional users. As companies grow, we feel it is important that they feel their software will grow with them, without feeling taken advantage of by the software they use. Our revenue model scales well with a business, and it is one thing that differentiates GreenRope from other CRM and marketing automation software companies. Mr Schaeffer’s review seems to downplay this by saying only “huge companies” need more than 2 users. That isn’t our experience, but maybe Mr Schaeffer works differently. In my experience, if a company feels like they will have to pay for additional user licenses, the instinct is to save money and have people share those licenses. That’s a dangerous road to go down, and one we want to help all of our clients avoid. (Not really what I said. Infusionsoft has packages with 4 and 5 users but the majority of new clients only need 2-3 licenses. When businesses get great help and have great software that is a true catalyst for their business, it's easy to invest in it. GreenRope's model is fine. Unlimited seats is fantastic. Again, though, I'd like to see what reality is as far as average company utilization. Maybe businesses with bigger needs go to them but after training hundreds of companies and thousands of users since 2008, very few ever needed more than the 4-5 licenses Infusionsoft offers in their standard packages.)

4. GreenRope is stable, having been around for 14 years and consistently, organically growing. The truth is that we hear from dissatisfied InfusionSoft customers almost every day. This isn’t a subjective analysis, and it isn’t meant as an insult to InfusionSoft – it’s the truth. (How does "dissatisfied" customers equate to an "unstable" company. This is where I started to take offense. Why use that word, "unstable?" Do you really have "objective" proof of this or is it really a "subjective" reply of a few unhappy users?) I have to admit that I laughed out loud when I read “do you think Goldman Sachs gives $54 million to unstable companies?” Umm… I hate to point out the obvious here, but did someone sleep through the financial crisis in 2008? (On the contrary, as a former Series 7 & 65 license holder, I made my living in the financial markets, and I can assure you you are comparing apples to hand grenades. What lead to the collapse of 2008 was the massive games played in the real estate market and the derivatives trading around Credit Default Swaps and Collateralized Debt Obligations all leveraged at upwards of $33 of exposure to every $1 actually invested. If the big boys on Wall Street would've poured a fraction of that money into supporting Inc 500 and Inc 5,000 award winning businesses like Infusionsoft that are adding jobs to our economy, the 2008 collapse never would've happened. Even CNNMoney recognizes the "stability" and superiority of Infusionsoft by naming them #17 of the 50 Best Small and Medium-Size Companies to Work For on 9/19/13.)

5. In the Setup Fee comparison, apparently Mr Schaeffer knows that InfusionSoft is willing to discount their $1,999 setup fee down to $999, something they don’t talk about on their website. I’m going to guess that that includes less “kick” in their Kick Start program. (It does. They get fewer training hours.) I’m starting to wonder if Mr Schaeffer forgot what he wrote earlier about offering different plans to help companies get started. (Nope. Some people have tight budgets and we realize that. But the Kickstart fee is mandatory. If someone won't invest in training up front they are not sold the software. It's not a bait-and-switch. "Oh, it's so easy just jump right in." Learning any new platform takes some time and I don't shy away from that fact. I tell all prospective clients that it is work to convert over and to think in terms of automating everything. My clients make informed decisions.) We didn’t know InfusionSoft discounts their setup fees – we’re not mind readers here. We go off of what InfusionSoft has on their website and what we hear from people who used to use their software.

 

 

6. In our comparison, we did pick the highest-priced package that InfusionSoft offers because if we didn’t, the comparison would be even more lopsided. We wanted to let InfusionSoft put their best foot forward. I think somehow Mr Schaeffer counted this as one of our “failures” in his tally at the bottom of the review. If wanting to see the best in others is a failure, then give me a big fat F because I’m that glass-is-half-full kind of guy. (Not true. You picked the packages that made you look the best. You did not even mention they have other packages. I'll accept your "F.")

7. In the email sending limit comparison, we never implied you could never ever send more than 50,000 emails with InfusionSoft. The comparison is about what is included in an account without having to pay extra. We don’t charge for additional emails so our clients have one less thing to worry about. (Again, if you reread your table you make it appear that 50,000 is the limit. "F")

8. In the comparison of users, we’re talking about what’s included, not what’s possible. With InfusionSoft, you have to pay extra for more than 5 users. Most CRM platforms work this way, and I certainly don’t fault InfusionSoft for this pricing model, but it’s a comparison page, and it’s something we do differently. We believe offering unlimited users provides more value to our customers, and I think even Mr Schaeffer would be hard pressed to find out how that could be interpreted as a “failure”.

9. GreenRope is never attempting to “blur the line” with our comparison. I’m not entirely sure what that even means, since we’re only reporting facts here, but I’ll bite. There are a lot of things that InfusionSoft doesn’t do natively, like the support ticketing example he gives. Of course you can try to make any system do something it isn’t built to do. You could try to make Excel your CRM, too. But the amount of time and cost to customize a system not made to do something like ticketing means it’s not likely to ever be used. Mr Schaeffer never mentions how much time and money it takes to figure out how to set up a ticketing system with InfusionSoft, probably because it’s a lot more than what it costs in GreenRope (exactly $0). (You're blurring the lines by implying that throwing in the kitchen sink is necessarily a good thing and that by lumping so many things into one category you're saying Infusionsoft can't do it.)

10. Ok, I admit - he has one gotcha. We haven’t logged in to InfusionSoft in a while. (Why not? As a former Division I football player, we always scouted the competition to better understand them so we could prepare. Why are you not looking at the strengths of your competitors to know how to improve your own platform?) We don’t have an InfusionSoft account (although one of the founders of InfusionSoft does have a GreenRope account). We go off of what is on the InfusionSoft website and what people tell us when they say what they like about InfusionSoft and when they vent their frustration. To my knowledge, InfusionSoft can’t combine unlimited custom demographic and activity based scoring and create custom decay algorithms. Nor can you combine lead scoring with predictive analytics to predict who your most likely future purchasers will be. ("Custom decay algorithms." This begins to show the difference between GreenRope vs Infusionsoft. Maybe we serve two different types of users. In my work with professional salespeople, sales managers, business owners and entrepreneurs I've never heard one ask for "custom decay algorithms." I'm not saying they don't need it, but most have 500 business cards wrapped in a rubberband in their desk drawer, they have 18 different hotel notepads in the back seat of their car, each with 22 different To-Do lists, and they haven't sent a broadcast email to their list in about 7 months. There's a time and a place for advanced algorithms. But every single solitary business needs to get better at sales and marketing fundamentals. That's who we serve with Infusionsoft. I have an entire team of API developers that build quite sophisticated software tools for our advanced users but they represent about 1% of the marketplace. Again, just because you can add a feature to your software doesn't mean it's a benefit. That's why Apple iPads sell and Microsoft Surface tablets crash and burn. Lars has a B.S. and and M.S. in Mechanical Engineering and it shows in his software, and not in a bad way. He is very logical and linear and serial in his thinking and his design. Infusionsoft has those same smart engineers but the leaders and founders of the company started the company from a different vantage point. Lars wants to put in everything possible and Infusionsoft wants to put in only what's needed. Both are fine. Both are different. I have an engineering background from USAFA and a science background from Texas A&M but have been in sales and marketing since 1997 so I approach everything from an entrepreneurial-end-user stand point.)

 

 

11. Realtime alerts come in many forms in GreenRope. Between seeing a ticker of recent activity while you’re logged in, to our social collaboration system, to getting email alerts when people visit your webpages. To my knowledge, InfusionSoft doesn’t offer all that, hence the reason why we say “Limited” in our comparison. Mr Schaeffer didn’t address this with any facts, relying instead on “I say Whatever”. I’m not sure why he chose such language, rather than discussing the issue. (I say "whatever" because you don't know and also because, as referred to in #10 above, you tout "the kitchen sink" as being a benefit, which it is, only to some.)

12. I think Mr Schaeffer should probably read up on what dynamic content means before he criticizes our comparison of the two systems. He seems to think it means “Dear Joe” in the subject line, rather than using dynamic, flexible rules to customize emails and webpages. And to assume no one is interested in testing implies he isn’t teaching people how to market correctly. Just because InfusionSoft can’t help you with testing doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. (Like #'s 10 and 11 above, I know what it is and we help clients that are ready for it and understand it and need it and can leverage it and optimize it do it, but most clients are not ready for that. Is it a nice-to-have. Yes. Are most clients months if not years removed from being ready for it. Can you build a half million dollar, million dollar, multi-million dollar business with a small staff while working from home without all of these bells and whistles. You betcha.)

13. InfusionSoft’s email templates are limited in their customization compared to GreenRope. We offer hundreds of templates with millions of color combinations, and the ability to embed surveys, event RSVPs, dynamic content, and more within the email builder. InfusionSoft can’t do that. (Ok, maybe you have more templates but in your own website you say "but with limited customization." That is factually incorrect because Infusionsoft gives users access to the HTML the customization is limitless. Again, you're blurring the lines on reality. More importantly, Infusionsoft gives uses ENTIRE PRE-BUILT *CAMPAIGNS to install with a click to get you up and running FAST! I'll take 25 complete campaigns over a million color options any day of the week.)

*Back on Nov 3, 2013, Infusionsoft provided 25 Campaigns along with a "Campaign of the Month" for free:

1. Convert Sales With Holiday Promos
2. Attract Traffic Using Direct Mail
3. Birthday Reminders
4. Easy Networking
5. NPS Survey
6. Event Registration & Follow Up
7. Abandoned Cart Recovery
8. Capture Leads with a Free Newsletter
9. Free Report Campaign
10. Automate Opportunities
11. Automate Contact Requests
12. Capture Leads with a Free Consultation
13. Call Back Every Customer
14. Launch a Referral Partner Program
15. Purchase Follow Up
16. Track Email Engagement
17. Add Free Members to CustomerHub
18. Focus on Your Hottest Leads
19. Automate Follow Up for Twitter Leads
20. Mobile Networking Using Snap
21. Collect All Recurring Billings
22. Hard Bounce Recovery
23. Generate Repeat Sales
24. Add Paid Members to CustomerHub
25. Track Inbound Gifts for a Free Gift

*As of October 2020, Keap now has the Small Business Strategy Guide that focuses on nine market segments at first:

1. Online Store
2. Local Service Provider
3. Coach & Consultant
4. Online Learning
5. Events & Entertainment
6. Health & Fitness
7. Medical & Dental
8. Real Estate
9. Professional Services

From there you further segment the list of available Campaigns based on three goals:

1. I want to collect more leads
2. I want to follow up better with the leads I have now
3. I want to get more repeat business and referrals

This is powerful segmentation that goes far beyond some email templates, which is why new users start so quickly with Infusionsoft.

14. Basic file storage may be included with an InfusionSoft account, but it doesn’t include public download tracking, password protection, or a built-in editor for image files. In a comparison of the two services, these important tools are missing. Until now, we were unaware of their file storage capabilities and will adjust our comparison page to be more precise. (You are mostly correct here. With Infusionsoft's tracking links you can tell who has accessed files and when. With CustomerHub, which is an extra $79/mo, you have a complete membership site. Thank you for making the changes.)

15. Accounting is much more than sales and gross profit calculations. GreenRope also includes invoicing, journaling, and account balance management, which InfusionSoft does not. That’s what we (and most others I have met) mean by accounting. GreenRope also integrates with Quickbooks, as well as e-conomic for our European customers. (Infusionsoft is not an accounting tool so you may have more features here, but Infusionsoft does integrate with Quickbooks. This is either vital for users or they don't mention it. Since 2008 very few have asked for this but we have supported larger clients since early 2013 on integrations with larger ecommerce platforms like Magento and Big Commerce, which serve retail clients with extensive SKUs, which is not a market Infusionsoft was created to support.)

16. GreenRope offers a complete website CMS within our platform, and you can build as many websites as you like within your GreenRope account. Those websites can include blogs, a storefront, membership management, polls, event registration, and more. For most websites, a GreenRope-powered website has enough power and flexibility. If a very complex website or shopping cart is required, all of our web components like our signup/lead capture forms, live chat, ticketing, etc are totally portable. (This is a nice feature GreenRope offers but is it another example of the Kitchen Sink? What's wrong with Wordpress for the average small business?)

17. Somewhere in the middle of writing his review, Mr Schaeffer’s tone turned angry. It’s anyone’s guess as to why, but calling us “fools or liars” seems just a bit extreme. (Not extreme. "Impassioned." I was being "extreme" to highlight your own extremity. Maybe it's guilt by omission but to say Infusionsoft's "lead capture/web forms" are "limited" is misleading. Why not make separate fields for "Auto-responders" (CHECK), LOGIC (Define "logic." Have you seen Infusionsoft's decison nodes? CHECK...depending on how you define logic, which you do not do here.), "CRM Integration" (CHECK). I stand by my impassioned statement.) He was referencing how GreenRope’s lead capture forms do more than InfusionSoft. With GreenRope, lead capture forms can dynamically change depending on how they are filled out. GreenRope forms can redraw on-the-fly and offer a completely flexible, personalized experience and can drive the different kinds of marketing automation (with dynamic content) related to the form. InfusionSoft does have some powerful tools in this department, but they can’t do what GreenRope can do. I have to say I do appreciate the tip on hair bleach, especially from someone no doubt far more experienced than I am on the subject. ("No doubt?" Have you seen my hair? Just as natural and sexy as can be! No treatment needed.)

18. When we say GreenRope works on all browsers, we mean just that. I’m not sure why so much of a big deal was made about that in Mr Schaeffer’s review. What is a fact turned in to a justification for why InfusionSoft’s product is behind schedule. I’m still scratching my head at that one. (Again, blurring the lines. Your statement of "Firefox and IE Only" is factually incorrect and I took one paragraph to explain how.) (I’ll be careful to not get too much bleach on my fingers) (That is a good thing. That stuff is nasty. Especially if you're eating ribs. Keep the bleach away!)

19. I’m sure all of Mr Schaeffer’s blog readers are happy to know he has perfect data management practices and has never lost any data in his InfusionSoft account. I suppose another “good for you” is warranted here, and I sincerely mean it. That, however, was not the point of illustrating the difference in how our two companies help clients who inadvertently lose data. To us, it comes down to a company’s values. I believe that if someone makes a mistake, no matter how well you think your software is designed, you don’t want them to pay a financial penalty to recover from that mistake. (Infusionsoft believes in charging a reasonable up-front investment so you are trained well so your data-deletion mistakes are few and far between instead of throwing you the keys to a 747 and saying "Good luck. Call us if you crash.") InfusionSoft has held their clients’ data hostage for DAYS over this, not allowing access to the company’s vital business data over a couple hundred dollars. My view is that that is a corporate culture issue. Given what I have seen from the founders of InfusionSoft, I wonder if they are aware of this practice. That kind of culture is the antithesis of how we see our customers here at GreenRope. We believe in collaborating with our customers and helping them grow. (Please provide examples of holding "clients' data hostage for DAYS" and I'll back down on this. You'd think in my 9+ years and hundreds of clients I would've had one or two hostages but I haven't. Does Infusionsoft charge if you do something negligent? Yes. Do they charge if you do something foolish? Maybe. Do they charge for a minor adjustment or restoring a record here and there. I guess they can at their discretion but it has not happened with one of my clients that let me know about it. Granted, I don't know all of my clients personally over 5+ years. Some do buy and are never heard from again as they just go build a business. Maybe some of them deleted chunks of data and refused to pay a couple hundred bucks to have Infusionsoft engineers apply many hours of support to fix their mistake. It's an imperfect world and sometimes we have to pay for our mistakes.)

 

Mr Schaeffer closed his “independent” (where did I ever say this was an "independent" review?) review with a sales pitch on his InfusionSoft consultancy practice (is selling a bad thing? I am The Sales Whisperer® after all.), which I sincerely hope is more professional and fact-driven than his blog post. (Ouch. Now who's calling whom names and hitting below the belt you Meanie Head!? Have I listed any incorrect facts in my analysis or rebuttal of the rebuttal?) He put a considerable amount of effort into trying to discredit our comparison of InfusionSoft, which I hope this vignette addressed. (Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but the facts are not. Well, except in Washington D.C.) As always, I’m open to feedback about anything I have written. If our research is incorrect, my door is open to InfusionSoft to correct that page. I’m sure they know about our comparison page, but have yet to reach out to us. (Industry leaders do not "reach out" to competitors. It only validates you and turns into a tar baby for them. As an independent consultant, though, that just ran across this comparison, it does indeed help me grow to point out the flaws in your own company-endorsed comparison of GreenRope vs Infusionsoft.) You can also research a detailed comparison on http://www.ombud.com that is actually independent and come to your own conclusions. (I had never heard of Ombud.com until I saw it on the GreenRope vs Infusionsoft comparison. In looking at them it looks like they just want to collect your contact info to market to you because you must login to see the entire comparison. At least Lars and I provide this info in its entirety and free of charge so I take that site with a grain of salt, a slice of lime and a nice shot of tequilla.)

Thank you for your time, and on behalf of everyone at GreenRope, we wish you all the greatest success.

Lars Helgeson
Founder, GreenRope

There you have it. Lars asked if I had the "courage" to post his rebuttal. Now, 6,488 words into this I'll let you decide if I do. I think the crux of the matter is answered in #10 above: Lars Helgeson is an engineer and approached the creation of GreenRope from an engineer's perspective. Nothing wrong with that. Clate Mask, Scott Martineau and Eric Martineau approached the creation of Infusionsoft from an entrepreneurial perspective. Nothing wrong with that.

GreenRope vs. Keap Conclusion

At the end of the day, the decision boils down to which platform can make you money the fastest. None are perfect, which means you need to look at the support infrastructure of both companies to include their partner network because no company can meet all of the needs of all of their clients.

As a salesperson, sales manager, general manager, business owner, and entrepreneur, I have found Infusionsoft to be the right mix for the majority of small to medium-sized businesses across the globe.

And because of my access to the leadership team as well as the developers, I am confident in their future product development to include conferences, regional training events, online training, and digital tools.

As the father of 7, an Air Force veteran, and a business owner who needs tools that work, I have no problems recommending Infusionsoft. Take that for what it's worth.

And at the end of the next day, I have nothing against GreenRope.

The few interactions I've had with them have been quite pleasant and professional.

They come across as cool people, and from our dialogue here, we're all just fired-up entrepreneurs that give a crap about what we do and who we serve, and that's a good thing for you, the consumer, the entrepreneur that needs the best.

The business owner doesn't have a government safety net or a "fallback plan."

You're in it to win it, and you want people who are just as fired up about what they do as you are.

The jabs about bleached hair, etc. is my tongue-in-cheek humor meant to stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing. If you don't like it WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A FLYING....I mean, please understand that's just how I roll.

Finally, never take sales advice from a purported sales trainer who doesn't charge for his own services.

If he can't make a sale with you, how can he help you convince others to buy from you?

And at the end of the final day, the GreenRope vs. Keap discussion is all about which platform can help you sell and keep more of what you sell. Isn't being in sales a beautiful thing?

Would you like to discuss this in more detail?

Contact me here.