Should You Never Split The Difference? Dr Mark Goulston Answers.

Wes Schaeffer: Dr. Mark Goulston all the way from LA. 25 year professor of psychiatry and you have promised, you're going to help me stop holding myself hostage. Isn't that what you said? But, welcome to the show...first of all, how the heck are you?
DMG: It's great to be part of the show, you know, we're all being we all feel set times like we're being held hostage.
DMG: Meaning you know we have some ideas. And we have a vision. We have a strategy and if we're entrepreneurs and I'll tell you if you're listening in and you're an entrepreneur and you're going to know what I'm about to say.
DMG: What holds us hostage, is that it's the bottleneck to success?
DMG: Is as soon as you have to do things through people.
DMG: People are messy.
DMG: And that's the bottleneck, because you can come up with a clear vision, you can come up with a clear strategy but execution is really the challenge.
DMG: And that's why a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, are you know are into this artificial intelligence because you know machines, don't you know they break down but they're not as messy as people
Yeah.
WS: Yeah, there's an old adage, and it depends on who you are as to who says it right because a prospects will say, you know, you can tell when a salesperson is lying their lips are moving
WS: And then salespeople say, you know, you can tell when a prospect is lying their lips are moving like well you're both saying the same thing about each other. Why are we all lying to each other? Why are we so messy.
DMG: Because I think
DMG: People are afraid.
DMG: Your here's my philosophy in life.
DMG: I identify
DMG: Stop or get away from evil at the earliest opportunity.
DMG: But most other people are just flawed. I'm flawed. You're flawed and our fear makes us do stuff that doesn't work out that well sometimes
DMG: So that buyer.
DMG: Is blind that seller is lying because they're afraid.
DMG: I will tell you what they're afraid of it. In fact, maybe we can get into this because I gave a talk in Moscow 2000
DMG: CEOs managers companies.
DMG: And I was, I was actually humbled that they had me there. I was there with a Nobel Prize winner named Daniel Kahneman and he wrote a book called "Thinking Fast and Slow," and a lot of people know what that's about us, you know, how do people think, you know, you think quickly or do you think analytically.
DMG: And what I talked about to the audience.
DMG: Is, is that when you're speaking to people.
DMG: If you can focus on what people are listening for
DMG: And deliver it, they will lean towards you.
DMG: Whereas if you just focus on someone listening to you.
DMG: You know they checkboxes you checkboxes and they're hesitant.
DMG: So I'm gonna, I'm going to demonstrate this on us. Okay.
DMG: Game for me to try something.
WS: Bring it on. I can always hit Delete.
DMG: Ooh, I love that challenge. Oh, I like a good challenge.
WS: Yes, and cut. Okay, yeah, we're back with our show.
DMG: Which West says, nice try, Doc, delete, delete, delete, so. So here's the difference. And I want you to tell me how it feels differently. Okay, so if I focus on you listening to me.
DMG: What you're listening to me for is can I give some, you know, bullet points. Can I give some tips. Can I give certain things and your listeners or viewers when they see it.
DMG: They're going to, you know, write down some things. And if some of them are interesting and if some of my stories are entertaining, you know, then you know you'll try a few of the bullets. You might check my books, whatever. It's a transactional conversation. It's it doesn't last that much.
DMG: But if, if, instead of focusing on what you're listening to and my delivering bullets I focus on what you're listening for
DMG: And I get it right, especially since you didn't tell me you're going to lean in towards me. So here's the drum roll. This is what I think you're listening for and you tell me, nice try a misc doc.
DMG: So if I think this is what you're listening for
DMG: You're listening for information.
DMG: That is immediately. It's what we call red zone communication, you're listening for information that is immediately relevant to your listeners and viewers.
DMG: Be they entrepreneurs, be they salespeople so relevant means this will help me get better measurable results if I'm a salesperson. This will help me sell more if I'm an entrepreneur. This will help me sell more and tap into a market. So you're listening for me to be relevant.
DMG: You're also listening for me to give tips or tools or tactics.
DMG: That can help your listeners and viewers, be more effective at making more money or solving problems.
DMG: And the third thing. This is why we call it red zone is you're listening for tactics are tools that are doable by your audience.
DMG: Immediately
DMG: Where they don't have to buy a book with their have to buy a course I have all that stuff. But what you're listening for is to give your audience and immediately relevant effective and doable information so that they can leave this interview this podcast said I can use that today.
DMG: Is that true
WS: I would say that is 80% of what I'm looking for. The immediate for sure people have to, they got to get something
WS: They got to get a small win.
WS: So they have some success boost their confidence because ultimately what I want
WS: And I tell people this all the time and all my sales training. It's like, I will give them tactics and lines and scripts and rebuttals and all this stuff, not to make them a robot of me.
WS: But to help them have enough confidence to stay in the game.
WS: To make the true like long-lasting changes that are required for success in anything.
WS: That makes sense.
WS: But, but, like, you know, jujitsu, it's hard. It takes years to master.
WS: You know, becoming a psychiatrist right took years to master me and just because you graduate, doesn't mean you're necessarily any good. Right. They were "A" students and they were "C' students
WS: And maybe the "C" students became very good doctors in but took a while of actually practicing it so
WS: I'm fed up with the instant gratification world right but you got to give them some instant gratification tips so they stay. They say, give them what they want. So then you can give them what they need.
DMG: That's exactly true. Yeah, you know, you're reminding me of a
DMG: I remember I attended a workshop and and
DMG: And the person was talking about leading through change.
DMG: And he talked about, and he was great. He talked about loving your leading through change. It's important that you have a clear vision a clear strategy, a clear plan and all that. And everybody was nodding in the audience. It was about 80 people in the room.
DMG: And I raised my hand, and I said,
DMG: I have an observation and
DMG: Maybe I'm wrong, I don't think. And this really applies to these times. Now, I don't think the challenge is leading through change. I think the challenge is leading through fear other people's fear.
DMG: Because when people are afraid their minds constrict.
DMG: It's tough to be curious. It's tough to learn when your minds afraid.
DMG: And what I shared with them.
DMG: Is, as I said, I think what you what I tried to do
DMG: Is give people a tactic or tool that that is easy to use and as 100% effective
DMG: A non-fail.
DMG: Tactical tactic or tool.
DMG: That if they use it, they will get results that they've never had before.
DMG: And it's got to be simple and easy. And then they might be curious to learn more.
DMG: So can I give away one of those tips that will make anybody who's listening their life better.
Sure.
DMG: Um, so there's there's a
DMG: There's something in one of my books call I will book called talking to crazy, which is how to deal with the people drive you crazy.
DMG: It's not about mental illness. It's about the people who drive you crazy in life.
DMG: And how do you get through to them.
DMG: And it's called bifid crud technique.
DMG: And so I'd like you, if you're listening in, or watching this, I'd like you to imagine someone in your life.
DMG: Who you're getting into a TIFF with
DMG: escalating
DMG: They're venting
DMG: Your tendency is to say now, calm down. And, you know, Can we can we deal with this rationally, which only makes it works because it sounds like you're talking down to them.
DMG: So here's the fun crud technique.
DMG: So I'd like you to imagine someone could be a spouse could be a teenager.
DMG: Could be someone you know in your business. Let them vent.
DMG: Don't look at them like a deer in the headlights.
DMG: Let them vent let them finish venting pause for two seconds, which shows them that you actually listened to what they said and consider as opposed to reacting to it.
DMG: So they get the something off their chest
DMG: You pause for two seconds, and then you go, Huh, which means you considered it
DMG: And then you say to them, this is the fun part of it. You seem frustrated and I think you're holding back
DMG: You're going to go, what
DMG: You seem frustrated and I think you're holding back
DMG: What do you mean
DMG: You seem frustrated and I think you're holding back because I think you're upset and disappointed to
What
DMG: Yeah.
DMG: I think you're frustrated upset and disappointed.
DMG: Can you fill me in on those
DMG: And see what people will talk about being frustrated because everybody's frustrated. But if you say to someone, initially, you're angry I'm not angry. So it's like the layers of an onion and so they talk about what they're frustrated about
DMG: Whatever it is you don't take issue with it. You say, give me an example. Give me an example. Something I did that frustrated you
DMG: And they tell you you don't get defensive because what you're trying to do is you're trying to get them. It's the Muhammad Ali rope a dope in there.
DMG: You're trying to enable them to get stuff off their chest safely normally if they do that. You say, calm down. Calm down. And that just makes it worse. So he said, give me an example of it. You said, Whoa.
DMG: Oh yeah, I can see other frustrated you
DMG: What we upset about what have you been upset about with me and the upset is the pivot. That's, that's where you get the anger up
DMG: And then you ask them, give me an example that you go out
DMG: Yeah I did that too.
DMG: And if you watch them. I am telling us they calm down.
DMG: And then you say, what are you disappointed above
DMG: And if you follow these steps.
DMG: When they're talking about what they're disappointed about, you know, you're disappointed in me disappointed in US disappointed that we're back in this conversation again. Tell me about that.
DMG: What you've done is you've enabled them to get things off their chest and when they're talking to you about what they're disappointed about
DMG: Again, you say them, you know, I can understand that, too.
DMG: Let's talk about what we need. What we need to do. So you don't have to go through that again.
DMG: So can you picture that in your mind's iOS.
WS: Or
DMG: You know and so so that's an example of a tactic, a technique I can't guarantee it's 100% successful, but it is about 95% successful
WS: Yeah.
DMG: And people. People have said to me, it's magical
DMG: I gave it to someone who was the mayor of a city at some big conference because I saw, I was having a TIFF with his wife.
DMG: And I said, how's it going, well, you know, he was one of the speakers and we said, hey, can I share this fun credit technique with you. And he looked at me and you're having a conversation
DMG: The next day, you know, in the conference he comes up to me. So what's the matter, he said, I use that last night.
DMG: We had the best conversation we've had in 10 years
DMG: Now, I've been following me. So hopefully there's some take-home value in that.
Yeah.
DMG: Now, if you're in sales.
DMG: You can use a version of this, because if you see someone's pushing back
DMG: You know, they're obviously putting you in a category of pushy salesman.
DMG: And what you're gonna say to them is a current run something by you, because it's not going to, well, I'm going to say what
DMG: I have a feeling that this conversation has not gone in the direction that I certainly wanted it to go and you wanted to go well what do you mean
DMG: I think something's happened where it's gone sideways.
DMG: And I think what we're talking about how we're talking about it this. I think there's something about it that's, you know, frustrating to you.
DMG: What do you mean well
DMG: You know, it's not a coincidence that when people hear the word sales salesman.
DMG: You know, they immediately think that someone's going to take advantage of them.
DMG: And that's not my intention with you, but I think that's what you're feeling
DMG: Scope. So can you fill me in where it went sideways.
DMG: Do you see how that's impacted really different than
DMG: Uncover their objections.
DMG: But again, as West is saying.
DMG: You got to practice these things until it's not just a tactic. It's, it's, it's something where you feel a sense of mastery over yourself. Where you're able to have conversations where you talk with people instead of at them.
DMG: Yeah, and and and it can transform your life.
WS: Totally
WS: But it takes a while, it just
WS: Just does you know these guys in jujitsu right you fight these MORE EXPERIENCED GUYS, and they literally lay down and their so-called
WS: Like the guy. I'm gonna hurt you know you're not is that they have all the moves right they have all the defenses. Now they don't have all the moves in the world right but they have all the counters.
WS: To a guy at my level, they won't lay down with a peer right they're gonna be on guard.
WS: But it takes so much time to master and very few people will put in the effort to get to that point, you know, they're looking for the hacks and the shortcuts and, you know, one more funnel, like, Oh, no, we're not going there.
DMG: Is something else that
DMG: Is this okay we haven't good information are you going to delete.
WS: What we've said so. No, I love and
WS: I want to come back to the file tell you a funny thing that I use for talk for making outbound calls around that but
DMG: Tell me.
WS: What you were thinking this up. I don't want to
DMG: Yeah, so when I was in Russia. The title of my talk.
DMG: Was 1116. And the reason it was 1116 is because
DMG: What you really want to do when you're making presentations is what's the least that you can say that causes people to say, what's that
DMG: You know, or tell me more.
DMG: And they never heard 1116 because no one had ever come up with it. And so this is what I said to the Russian audience.
DMG: And I said, This is what if you're a B2B salesperson or you have a company that sells products.
DMG: It's fair when you're a salesperson. It's really easy to figure out what your successes. It's your clothes right you can see the numbers, but it's a little more complicated for the buyer.
DMG: And what they're listening for is 1116
DMG: And if you're listening to this podcast, you can actually bring this up. If you're in B2B sales.
DMG: And it's going a little bit sideways, you can say
DMG: Come, make an observation and you're going to say what
DMG: I think what you're listening for is 1116
DMG: So you got their attention.
DMG: It say yeah
DMG: What you're listening for
DMG: Is if you say yes.
DMG: To what I'm selling, will you regret it. One day, one week in one month from now.
DMG: If you say yes and if you're not the, you know, and if a buyer, you know, you're worried that if you say yes, that your boss is going to say, why did you buy this thing.
DMG: It's a piece of junk. What were you thinking we can't use it yet paid too much. So you're listening for will you regret this. One day, one week one month from now.
DMG: Also up
DMG: What you're listening for is will you regret saying no one day, one week one month from now, because if we're having a conversation. It's because you have some sort of a need or problem that you haven't solved. And if you say no means you got to go listen to some other person.
WS: See if see if they have the solution.
DMG: And another reason you might regret saying no.
DMG: Is if your competitor buys what we have and they love the field.
DMG: You don't want your boss saying to you. But what we didn't show me with so and so and you passed on that. Yeah.
DMG: Well, you know, our competitors said yes to it and they just lap. The field on us.
DMG: And so this is a way of empathic Lee, it opens people up. And so I did this to the Russian audience and it was spontaneously translated into Russian I spoken English. And I said, now you're probably wondering what sexes.
DMG: And you're looking like just like you are west. It was just like Mark, what is the six already well here's the six
DMG: What you're
DMG: Listening for is if I say yes to something that I regret. One day, one week one month from now six months from now, if I say yes to the wrong thing. My boss might say to me, you know that decision you made wasn't a good one.
DMG: You know, and I just took a hit from my boss and I'm going to share the hit that I took from my boss with you.
DMG: Because you brought it in. So you're really worried
DMG: Six months from now than when it's performance review time they say you know you know that bonus that you're going to get. Sorry.
DMG: But what you're really hoping for.
DMG: Is that six months from now, that boss says to you, you know that thing that you bought for us, it was the best thing we brought into the company. It was a game-changer.
DMG: In fact, my boss gave me the biggest raise and promotion possible. And if you have a good boss what your boss is going to say, and you're getting one too.
DMG: And so, so what I'm suggesting is when you lay this out.
DMG: It's a different conversation that a buyer a B2B buyer has ever had with anyone. And then you say, can you help. Can you fill me in on this, let's let's reverse engineer it six months from now.
DMG: And your boss says best thing. Best thing anyone's bought for the company.
DMG: Tell me, what would make this the best purchase because it will make you a star.
DMG: And also,
DMG: What is something that could get you into trouble.
DMG: That's the last thing I want to do and I'll throw one more other tip if any of this is of interest to you.
DMG: If you're on B2B sales.
DMG: One of the things you can say here to a buyer.
DMG: And I often tee it up and say, you know, I have a certain observation, can, can I share an observation with you.
DMG: And, you know, people are not going to say no. And you say to that person.
DMG: You and I have much more in common with each other than either of us have with our CEO.
DMG: Didn't say what
DMG: You and I have much more in common than our CEO, because our CEO has some sort of you know cushions and parachute, even if they underperform they're going to get a bonus will go to some other company, you and I just trying to make a living.
DMG: I make a living by selling stuff you make a living by making good decisions. You know that make your company more successful and you get credit for
DMG: And so we're on the same team. I mean we have more in common. So how do we do something so it makes us both successful and what I've suggested to salespeople.
DMG: Is and let me tell you something that's off that if I'm the salesperson. Let me tell you something that's off the table.
DMG: And the buyer is going to say what
DMG: I will not sell you anything that gets you into trouble or hurt your career or gets you a bad performance review.
DMG: Closing a sale at your expense like that is off the table.
DMG: I wouldn't do that to you. I'll go, I'll go to another company and you know when this is a better fit. And the point is if you can say that, honestly.
DMG: Not just a tactic.
DMG: It's one of the ways you build trust.
DMG: In the sales profession and that's almost unheard of.
DMG: So I'm done talking West is any of this relevant effective or even doable.
WS: Or not done talking. This is my show. I'm going to keep asking you questions.
WS: So, okay, bye. On the one hand, I love it. Right. I love that whole sequence.
WS: On the other hand, it's like can
WS: That doesn't the prospect feel it already. Like if I always tell people, prove you're different by being different.
WS: Right from the very beginning act differently. Engage differently if you say you're going to follow up at 1015 tomorrow, call it 1015 right you prove that you're reliable, but being reliable because it's like the old thing, you know.
WS: Gonna be honest with you, I'm like, You mean you haven't been until now, so it's
WS: So, like, on the one hand, I love it. On the other hand, what
WS: Might they still see it as a line as a gambit as a tactic.
DMG: Um,
DMG: Absolutely. But the point is,
DMG: You have to decide whether you
DMG: Want to be it.
DMG: Oh, because I will tell you something.
DMG: You can get people to lower their guard and trust you in a profession where there's not much trust.
DMG: But if you do a bait and ditch.
DMG: They're going to hate you.
WS: Oh, for sure.
DMG: So you don't want to find a way to get people to lower their guard and then take advantage of them in fact
DMG: One of my lesser-known books which I think it's a very good book. It's called real influence how to persuade without pushing and gain without giving in
DMG: And part of the steps in that book. It's called real influence I co-wrote it with a fellow from the Anderson skull john Coleman
DMG: Is I think that the steps and my guesses your course covers this stuff because it's not rocket science. The first thing is, go for a great outcome for the other person.
DMG: It's going to be a great outcome. It can't just be, you know, small, it's going to be something that, wow, that'd be great. The second thing is
DMG: Be aware of your own blind spots and correct them in your own blind spots are you being too pushy.
DMG: Or you interrupting them or you're not listening. Be aware of your blind spots which out of your own anxiety can push people away.
DMG: The third thing which we got a lot of interviews where is learn how to go from your here lie. Oh, you are he, are we to their, their th e IR th er a
DMG: Meaning let go of your agenda and go to where they're at.
DMG: That will make them successful make them happy. Make them feel safe. And then the fourth step and it goes back to what you were saying about the when you make an appointment to get back the fourth step is
DMG: After you've given enough give more exceed their expectations.
DMG: Not only be on time. Do something even better. And in fact, think of something that might help them be even more successful that may not even be relevant to whether they buy from you.
DMG: You know, because
DMG: It's interesting. I have a podcast called my wake up call. And it's not as many episodes as yours. I'm only have 135 but
DMG: But I can go back to every one of my guests.
DMG: Because my whole focus is how to help them be much more impactful and managing their future and I have guests like Larry King David Chilton. He was the, you know, Secretary of the VA. He was carried over from Obama and he got fired by Trump
DMG: Ken Blanchard Gary ridge from WD 40 and its own Tom Stier ran for president but the whole focus of the interview.
DMG: Is when I find out what's really important to them.
DMG: If I can see something that will help them be more impactful.
DMG: You know, I'll switch the interview around. I say, Can I make a suggestion.
DMG: And so that enables me to go back to any of my guests.
DMG: Because they felt that I wasn't just trying to, you know, cover basis, it's like, wow. You gave me something that I could actually use. Mm-hmm.
DMG: So, so it builds on what you were saying it's the fourth step from real influence after you've done enough do more. Mm-hmm.
WS: It's funny, I tell my clients give away your best stuff for free upfront.
WS: So kind of similar. And that's even, you know, just in your marketing, right. It's like great content great value. And people are like, I get this for free man, what do I get paid for it.
WS: And what they don't realize is what they get is they're buying their own attention.
WS: When you get something for free. Just don't value it and
WS: And so your clients, you know, if you give free, are you undercharge. They don't value it, they won't put as much focus on and they won't get as good of results, you know, if you charge for it so
WS: Good stuff. And a lot of links got a lot of notes.
WS: So on your
DMG: Lead any stuff. Am I, am I free from delete so far.
WS: Oh, this is all continuous
WS: 19 92% of my podcasts are completely unedited and the 7.5% of the remaining 8% or like if there's a technical glitch. And I just got to remove a long pause, and
WS: May, it's, you know, there, there may be born or two out there that chop something out but I'm saying maybe I just play this as as
WS: People get it wrong.
WS: So on your foot crowd this crowd stand for anything or just the fear.
DMG: Another crowd is something that it makes it a little bit a memorable, you know,
DMG: It's kind of like, you know, I have a book coming out.
DMG: Maybe we'll do another show because this is sort of my passion project. I have a book coming out in the next couple months called why cope when you can heal why cope when you can heal how healthcare heroes of COVID.
DMG: can recover from PTSD, because one of my one of my books was PTSD for dummies. I work with veterans. I'm committed to. So our commitment in that book.
DMG: And I get a little emotional is we're committed to making sure that healthcare workers do not become the 22 veterans who killed themselves every day.
DMG: Because they have seen such whores.
DMG: And they go back their duty bomb. They don't even see their families when they get home from the you know they live in the garage and what's going to happen is they're all running on you'll understand this, when they're all running on adrenaline.
DMG: And they know something's messed up inside, but they say, Geez, I went three days without sleep. I didn't know I did it.
DMG: Same for veterans, geez, I don't know how I got through it and then when the danger goes away all that stuff you push down threatens to eviscerate you from the inside out.
WS: Mm-hmm.
WS: Yeah.
WS: Not too many things in life that get better by ignoring them. Hmm.
Now,
DMG: So part of the, you know, what will be introducing
DMG: Yourself something called surgical empathy and I bring that up because
DMG: Because I know Chris Voss and never split the difference. And he talks about tactical empathy.
DMG: And I had an issue with that because you gotta realize I'm a suicide specialist and 25 years. None of my patients killed himself.
DMG: And I think my main approach. I was trying to figure out why didn't they and it's because I, I was able to get into the dark night of the soul with them.
DMG: And keep them company there when someone gets in there and they're not throwing techniques that you that you can't use because you're blocked, you start to cry when you're not in hell alone.
DMG: And then when you start to cry. You're starting to relax a little bit and you start to be able to think that's surgical empathy.
DMG: That's where I that's, that's where I come to the world is to bring surgical empathy to the world to lessen hurt pain, fear and anger.
DMG: Yeah, I'm happy to increase sales but you know at this point in the podcast, you know,
WS: Let me get your take on this. I always say in sales. Our job is hurt.
WS: And then rescue
DMG: Well, I like to say more about that.
WS: Because
DMG: Because I can
WS: Because I do want to go back to
In
WS: Word, I write my notes.
WS: Because you're talking about. I
WS: We have to figure out, like, what's, what are we blocking
WS: What were
WS: The four keys.
WS: Be aware of your own blind spots.
WS: Right, so we all have blind spots. So when I
WS: Say hurt and rescue. So it's a kind of a play on your

WS: You know, because I always say, look, if
WS: If a prospect truly
DMG: Understood.
WS: The ramifications of their current situation, they would have already addressed it
WS: Okay.
WS: A few years ago, we had a water or water heater exploded. Right-click through the garage through the wall into the flooring baba ba. The typical damage you expect right so if there was some artificial intelligence.
WS: Some bought going out due to do analyzing all the all the water heater collapses, you know,
WS: Danger Danger, Will Robinson, you know, you have an 86.2% chance of a water heater rupture and the next six months, we'd be like, well, let's fix that thing.
WS: Right. But we don't, we're just fat dumb and happy, living in our homes and so always our job as house people, you know, make that call knock on that door, you know, Mr shaver in
WS: This is your home. Yes, it is. You know, this home is you know 16 and a half years old. Yeah. It has the water heater. I've been replaced.
WS: I don't know. Now we live here 10 we've never replace it. Then look at this study at 6.2% Oh my gosh, you know,
WS: Hurt and rescue. Right. I'm like, oh, man, we could have a flood of who knows the gas leaks gas, you know, we can die fire. Can you come today right so hurt and rescue and obviously there's some art in some skill with that but to bubble up in the prospect.
WS: How is this. How do you feel about this if you address this. Have you thought about this? Who besides you cares? Who besides you would be interested or impacted by this boom boom and get them?
WS: Oh my gosh, I am exposed, don't worry I'm here. Good thing I called when I did, then we rescue them. You know, so it's kind of that.
DMG: I think that's wonderful.
WS: What you're talking about there, right, like they're not in hell alone. It's like, oh my, if you don't do something in six months, and you have a water heater leak and you know $15,000 and flooring damage when you get fired for that.
WS: So,
WS: But I like the imagery there.
WS: You know cuz
DMG: I'll take a table would work with me because, you know, because I
DMG: Like I go with this from a slightly different angle. But you and I are in sync.
DMG: And, and I think the key years
DMG: Because one of the things I find a lot of people, especially men in business.
DMG: Is a lot of men in business are emotionally shy.
DMG: They're emotionally shy in their life because it feels like a good go out of control. And so they will often come at something and they will feel transactional as opposed to feeling really like you care.
DMG: And and and that's a work in progress, because I think you know when people actually feel that you care as opposed to you're trying to convince them about an exposure.
DMG: Now you got to realize you're talking to a suicide prevention expert with no deaths, but 25 years so I had to create something where they would lean towards me.
DMG: Or else I'd lose them.
WS: Yeah.
DMG: Um, so as I replay.
DMG: I know how I'm thinking, how would someone approached me where I would lean towards them about a water heater and I don't know how they get to me. But if someone were to say
WS: Right now, just an example, but anything, you know, maybe I'm selling your computer. I'm selling you a CRM to grow your business.
WS: You know, so what, whatever, you know, we've got to bubble up bucket. Yeah. If it's a prospecting call. Oh well. So this might be a good point. So on your foot right I teach my clients, the fear frustrated upset concerned and angry.
WS: You know, Dr. Olson, you know, hey, you know, this is a cold call this is a sales call magic 20 seconds of your time tell you why I'm calling and you decide if we ever speak ever again.
WS: And now I'm busy. Hang up the phone. Okay. You'll forget that I call it, I can call you back in three or four weeks and keep you in the loop right and so you say, all right, you got 20 seconds.
WS: So, you know, hopefully, I've done a little bit of homework I'm looking for speakers authors coaches, you know, consultants. So whatever my niches. Right. It may if I'm calling software as a service. I'm going to have a different
WS: Subset of frustrated upset concerned angry. Right. So, but, so I know I'm calling. Right. And maybe, maybe I get a referral to you, but I can't use their name, but I know your situation, having this mastermind kind of frustrated
WS: You know software. Yeah. Cuz team is growing and they're they're using Google and outlook and just sticky notes and they're just frustrated. They're losing leads. Okay, so, hey, you know, I work with author speakers consultants that
WS: Are growing their business, but they're frustrated with the number of systems that they have to use
WS: They're upset with how much time it takes to copy and paste and duplicate of entry, you know the time and money wasted. They're concerned.
WS: About, you know, picking the right technology and applying it to grow their team. And some of them are just downright angry that
WS: Despite all their years in business and focus and energy things just aren't firing on all cylinders, you know, docket. I don't suppose any of those are important enough, you know, are impacting your business right now worth discussing are they
WS: You know,
WS: All I'm going to give you
DMG: So I'm going to give you a cute tip which I hope you'll find cute.
DMG: And we're on a good roll. So I feel like you're not going to delete it. So I was coaching business sales team.
DMG: And I said, you know,
DMG: Whomever you're calling
DMG: As we all get spammed we get robocalls we get all this stuff.
DMG: And so I we did a pilot study. I say, you know, everybody is so tense and if you can make anyone laugh or chuckle you're in, because nobody laughs
DMG: So this was the approach.
DMG: Ah,
DMG: You call someone in a cold call
DMG: And you say,
DMG: Oh,
DMG: Hey. Oh.
DMG: Hey,
DMG: Wes yeah um
DMG: What's up this mark.
DMG: This is Mark returning your call. What's this about
What
DMG: Now I'm returning a call. What's this above thing to say what I say.
DMG: Into what happens is, and then
DMG: It comes out that it's a cold call and you go, oh my god, I can't believe I just did this and I'm the one hitting on you. Oh, I feel like such an idiot.
DMG: And they're laughing with you because they can relate to feeling like an idiot. Oh, I'm so embarrassed. You know, I, I, you know, I thought I was following up on something that you reach out to me cheese.
DMG: What happened you make them laugh. They feel appreciated because they feel so uptight. So anything and what people would call that in psychology is a pattern interrupt.
Yep.
DMG: And and anytime you can sort of do that and surprise people
DMG: It.
DMG: And you get them to chuckle. They're interested
WS: Mm-hmm.
WS: That's funny, you know,
DMG: And I would say also so. So you weren't so you weren't reaching out to me. I mean, God, I've been in this business too long. I'm so embarrassed WESA
DMG: Of Jesus. So what is, what is it you do with you.
DMG: Oh, wow. Oh, well, you know, we work with that sort of stuff. But cheese. I thought you were reaching out to me.
DMG: God. Yeah, but you follow me. But there's a whole way in which you break this
DMG: Like I have, I can I share an anecdote that I think you'll like. So in talking to crazy
DMG: Which is how do you disarm people
DMG: There was an incident.
DMG: And so, and people listening in. You have to realize I'm just hard-wired to get through to suicidal people in London.
DMG: So one of the most memorable stories and talking to crazy
DMG: Is
DMG: I had one of the worst days of my life, you know where everything blew up in my face.
DMG: And I cut off someone in a big pickup truck.
DMG: You know, any honks his horn I wave then I cut them off again.
DMG: So he pulls in front of me and I am having one of the worst days I'm just sort of staring into, you know, the cab and there is his wife is telling him, don't go out there and I don't even know what I'm doing is I'm just, I'm just parked there one of those days.
DMG: So I'm just watching his wife is saying don't go out and teach saying I'm not going to put up with this and then I see gets out he's about 6'6"— huge—he comes over to my window and he bangs on the window.
DMG: And I'm so out of it.
DMG: I roll down the window.
DMG: And he said, You cut me off and GABA GABA, blah, you know, and Yo yo yo yo
DMG: You know, and he was going to say, you know, I'm going to do such and such and such and such.
DMG: So here's pattern interrupt on steroids. I looked at him.
DMG: And I said, Do you ever have one of those days where everything you do blows up in your face and you're looking for someone to come and put you out of your misery. Are you the guy.
DMG: He said what I said I don't cut off people I don't cut up people twice. I've had one of the worst days of my life. And I think I'm looking for someone to put me out of my misery. Are you the guy who's going to do that.
DMG: And he looked, he said, Now, calm down. I say you come down, you didn't have a day like this. I don't do this. He said, calm down. Get a hold of yourself. No, no, this is, this is, yeah, you want to trade days.
WS: No.
DMG: No, I need someone to this is
DMG: He said, Now, please, please come down. It's going to be okay. I said, Well, yeah, it's easy for you to say you didn't have this day that I had. And he says, it's going to be okay. And then I see goes back into his pickup truck.
DMG: And he looked in the rearview mirror and he waves. It's going to be okay. And he drives off.
WS: As like the old joke. You know, you pull most see a guy hitchhiking you know in the rain at nights and you pull over and you let them in, like, Oh my gosh, thank you about it for hours. Nobody was top is like
WS: How do you, how do you know I'm not a serial killer.
WS: And the guys like what are the odds of to serial killers being out on this road right now at this time.
WS: Oh hey myself.
DMG: You know, I think the message to your viewers and listeners is
DMG: God we're having this conversation with it's a
DMG: I hope there's some ponies. You know, there's a pony and at somewhere.
DMG: You know, but if you're listening in. You're saying, well, you guys are so experienced, you know, you can pull all these things out, you know, don't, don't beat up on yourself if you're listening in.
DMG: You know, you'll get the experience
DMG: Feel it was really interesting. I had a great interview with a fella named Jack Cochran, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente
DMG: And
DMG: And he said, he said what I say to entrepreneurs and I could say this, the salespeople.
DMG: He said, the most important thing you can do if you're a salesperson, or if you're an entrepreneur.
DMG: He said, You have to forgive yourself when you're wrong.
DMG: Because let's face it, the odds are that you're going to get know much more than you get yes from life.
DMG: The odds are you going to fail more than you succeed, but if you beat up on yourself mercilessly. I don't know what I'm doing. Why am I in this profession? He says, If you beat up on yourself, what's going to happen is you're going to not take risks.
DMG: You're not going to go out there and risk getting to know. And I thought, what a wonderful observation that if you want to be successful in life, and it doesn't go well you got to forgive yourself.
DMG: You can't beat up on yourself because
DMG: Otherwise you're just gonna, you're not going to take the risks necessary to succeed.
WS: It's all a risk. I remember my first job when I was out of the Air Force. I was a stockbroker.
WS: And this was 1997 and this Mutual Fun salesman, you know, comes, you know, the old lunch and learn right brings a slideshow will listen to his pitch, which is why we should put our clients and there's a mutual fund.
WS: And I remember him talking about. He says, Look, people, they want to ask is this mutual fund riskier that risky and he said, look, we need to redefine the definition of risk.
WS: You know, he says, look, this is with modern mutual funds and everything. And the way the economy and government set up. It's like
WS: This mutual fund is not going to zero right there. You can put your money at least your blue-chip accounts baba BA professionally managed. Yeah, you may get a loss, but
WS: You're not losing everything, but we were we were still like even to this day. Maybe there's a little bit of
WS: Influence, all the way from the Great Depression. Now remember, I mean, I was 24 my great grandfather died.
WS: Right. I mean, he was born in the late, late 1890s, so he knew the Great Depression. Very well. And so some of his lessons were taught to me. But he said this guy says, you know, we to redefine risk. The risk is not losing your money, your risk is outliving your money.
WS: Right. So, once he redefines as, like, oh,
WS: OK, I can run with that you know cuz that's that's so true with anything right. You're talking to these people that are suicidal. They've they have misinterpreted something right they've
WS: They've given an erroneous conclusion, they've reached this terrible conclusion about something that probably isn't that terrible but them. It is. It's like, dude, you're going to get through this.
WS: You know, but it's real to us right whatever emotion or feeling we attached to something. It's real to us right
DMG: So let me throw some things that you and
DMG: I think this is the beginning of a relationship. We're going to have West, but I could be wrong.
Who knows.
DMG: So here's where empathic
DMG: We're surgical empathy works.
DMG: So with the suicidal patients.
DMG: They've heard people trying to convince them.
DMG: To offer
DMG: You know, and I saw multiple attempts. And so the sequence, I would go through as I'd say at its absolute worst, how bad does it get inside there.
DMG: We see what at its absolute worst, how bad does it get inside you.
DMG: I actually did that with someone who was in the hospital, who was throwing out all these psychologists and they said, You better talk to this guy.
DMG: And he looked at me.
DMG: When I said at its worst, how bad does it get in there. He looked at me and he said, you don't want to know.
DMG: And I looked right back at him, because I knew if I looked away. I was toast. And I said, You know, you're probably right.
DMG: But
DMG: If someone other than you doesn't know how bad it gets inside there.
DMG: You're going to go off the deep end and go crazy.
DMG: And I looked at him.
DMG: This was a different interaction. He looked at me.
DMG: And he said,
DMG: I'm already there. Pull up a chair.
DMG: Do you follow me. So there's a way of going in there. So here's what I would say if you're dealing with someone and you try to convince them.
DMG: So if I was doing the mutual fund thing. And they're pushing back, you know, the risk is there such and such.
DMG: And you can do this if you're listening in your salespersons may fit.
DMG: What I've coached salespeople to say is
DMG: And I use this line, a lot, you know,
DMG: Can I make. Can I make an observation? It's a way of team saying I'm going to say something that's good.
DMG: And what you might say to someone who's pushing back is a
DMG: You've been burned before, haven't you,
DMG: What
DMG: You've been you've said yes to things and been disappointed.
DMG: And either disappointed in who you said yes to or disappointed in yourself for saying yes
DMG: And you're like, all of us. So you don't want to leave them out there hanging alone because you're like all of us. And I'm guessing that either. You've been burned or disappointed enough that some of those things were tough to bounce back from
DMG: And I'm guessing there are some things where you said I can't go through this again.
DMG: And maybe you're wondering if this is going to be one of those things we could be disappointed again and then you just question.
DMG: yourself the question, what were you thinking
DMG: And, you know,
DMG: And have you ever gone through that because I've been there.
DMG: You know, and is that what's going on is that you're not even aware of that. But you're being removed. This is reminiscent of some decisions you've made in your life, just like I have
DMG: That went south way south.
DMG: And you don't want to repeat it.
DMG: So any of that truth.
DMG: And then what happens is Emily unless that is exactly what's happening. I mean, when you're saying they're asking questions, then don't fit, we, we have a solution.
DMG: And I know it'll work and they know it'll work. But something's getting in the way. And what it is is they're getting a what we call a flashback.
DMG: That they're not even aware of not wanting to go through another decision that comes back and bites them.
DMG: And again, this is empathic selling if you can bring that out and say, you know, tell me about that because I am not here to do a repeat of that. Now, that said there's risk to everything. But knowing what you've gone through, I am not here to have you go through that again.
DMG: So let's talk this through.
DMG: That make any sense.
Mm-hmm.
WS: Yeah, and it's
WS: It's so much better to do it early. I tell my clients look hearing know early is a when
WS: I don't want to do a song and dance and fly out and shave and put on a suit and take you to dinner to and 12 and 18 times, only then to have you tell me know
WS: And it's a it's an insurmountable issue that it's not just that it's not an objection, it's a situation, it's just something you know but if you can get that out of the way early. There was a there was an episode of Hot of Happy Days and it was
WS: I keep forgetting to go grab the link, but I'm pretty sure it's season one, and it was the last episode, somewhere around 11 or the last somewhere in there but Richie Has this girl come over to study, right, she's beautiful.
WS: And they go to the room. They sit down. He's just Google Gaga. And she looks at him. She says, Would you like to kiss me.
WS: He's like, yes.
WS: So she gives him a kiss sick. Okay, can we study now like one say look all the boys I study with they all think they are like you enough to give you a kiss. And so they don't really focus and
WS: So their mind is wandering off basically right they're not paying attention.
WS: And so she's like, yes, I do like you know give you kiss. So coming now study and then they had a good study session, but it's like addressing that elephant in the room, right, you're just it's it. Can we just, we can't focus unless we talked about this so
WS: But, but why do we not address the elephant in the room.
DMG: Will be
WS: That fear.
DMG: Well, I think there's a fear of actually I'm going to share an anecdote that I love.
DMG: I've been fortunate to have of seven mentors. I've been unfortunate. They've all passed away. They were older and one of them was this wonderful person named Walter done
DMG: And he was a key executive under I think Don or Doug Kyo at Coca Cola and Walter got Coca Cola into the NFL. Major League Baseball. So some years ago. And in one of my books, I think, just listen.
DMG: There's a chapter called take it all the way to know and he shared. He said he had a saying. He said, unless you get a know you're giving away too much.
DMG: And then he gave this example, he said, and it was a great story. He said that he was speaking to one of the big theater chains about bringing coke into their lobbies.
DMG: And he was so likable.
DMG: That he was speaking to them and they and the head of the and the buyer said, you know, Walter. I hate to tell you this, we've decided to go with Pepsi.
DMG: And a lot of people are afraid to say no because they're afraid you'll get upset, you'll get hurt. It's, you know, as tough as it is to hear. No, it's often very awkward to say no because people project, you're going to get all upset, but this is what Walter said, without missing a beat.
DMG: He said,
DMG: What question.
DMG: Did I fail to ask what problem did we fail to bring out that if we could have solved that.
DMG: That know would have been different.
DMG: And the guy said, well, what you didn't bring up and you didn't know, is we're redesigning all of our lobbies and Pepsi said they'll underwrite it
DMG: And Walter said Coke can do that. And the guy said, Yeah, good. We'll go with Coke. So his idea is when you get a know there's a great opportunity.
DMG: To say, you know, unless you were just meeting with me, you know, just, you know, because you were polite and whatever. What didn't we talk about
DMG: What problem, didn't we service what solution that you're looking for didn't come out.
DMG: That if we had spoken about it and we could address it that you know your, you know, would have been another answer.
DMG: But I thought that was just a lovely way to deal with knows because he says when you can handle a know with such poise and grace the other person respect you. They want your esteem.
DMG: Because because they know if they were you, they would have gotten bent out of shape and the fact that you without missing a beat. You're just so calm and gracious
DMG: They can't believe you're handling the know so in such a classy way that they now want your approval because you're a classy person.
Mm-hmm.
WS: Interesting.
DMG: Good story.
WS: You know, you know, our thought you're going with this, and it's it's similar yet different
WS: That way back episode 78
WS: I had Andrea
WS: waltz on and she and her husband wrote a book called go for know
DMG: Mm-hmm.
WS: And they were both in the
WS: eyeglass business. They were one that lens crafters, one of the big ones.
WS: told the story from her husband that
WS: The manager like left lunch or point whatever came back, he was talking to her husband. So how'd it go
WS: To Google made a sale.
WS: And he was like, Okay, did you sell them, you know, sunglasses ago with in cases ago with it and extended care and contact lenses and he's like, No, no, no, no. It basically was saying.
WS: Kelly MacDonald, would you like to supersize that would you like an apple pie with that which like a salad with that.
WS: Go for know if they're
WS: Saying yes
WS: Then ask them to buy the next thing.
WS: until they finally say no.
WS: And then, you know, you've reached
WS: The, the true limit of their capacity or desire to buy, but at least you didn't leave anything hanging because
WS: People they
WS: Don't want to be pushy, but
WS: I understand that. I don't want to be pushy.
WS: Either but I don't leave money on the table and also
WS: You know, if I get home. I bought like a new ceiling fan, but it doesn't have light bulbs.
WS: Not only will I be disappointed. I'll be pissed off that you didn't say, Wes.
WS: Would you like some light bulbs with that it does it come with it. No, sir, does not come with it. We have these nice light bulb. Right, so go for know
WS: So, would you like a for fan for your garage that you know i mean go for no but people don't do that either they take the money and run
WS: Why is that?
DMG: Yeah, this, this is an interesting tangent is a guy named I think his name is Chester Harold I could be wrong but he's in Canada, and he wrote a book called to great book. It's called vivid
DMG: Vivid vision and what he basically says is that
DMG: You, you have to if you're running a company, you have to paint a vivid vision that everyone can see because when people can see something really clearly they'll want to do it. I mean, the JFK speech about. We're going to land.
DMG: Someone on the moon and get them safely back. That's a clear vision.
WS: Of the decade.
DMG: And as you're talking I hadn't thought about it. So we're kind of brainstorming together. But if you're using the idea about
DMG: The fan without the light bulbs.
DMG: Maybe and this probably doesn't fit all sales, but it may fit some sales. I think if you can get people to say, I'd like you to imagine you buying this and it's home. Tell me about the room. It's going to be in. So if you can get people to start describing a vivid vision of something
DMG: That's not going to work at McDonald's. I'd like, yeah, yeah. You know, I'd like you to give me a vivid vision of go at leaving and saying, Oh, I should have gotten a milkshake to
DMG: You know, so you know it's not for everything. But I think if you can get people to give you a vivid vision of something
DMG: You know, you're able to say
DMG: You know, you know, now that you see it. Is there anything missing. I got a fan on my room needs light bulbs. Oh, I'm glad. But maybe that might be also something that salespeople and entrepreneurs, you know, can do let's let's have a vivid vision of what this looks like.
DMG: It's kind of like the article that we didn't even talk about which I sent you is you know when I when I often do trainings for professional service providers accountants, lawyers, financial advisors.
DMG: You know the presentation is called
DMG: When can you start and how do you like to get paid.
DMG: And so the article which people can find they go to mark Olson com they'll find a lot of this stuff, unless you know unless I've worn out my welcome with you and your destiny.
DMG: But it's a vivid vision. So when I speak to consulting firms or lawyers groups, I say, how often does a potential client at the end of your first meeting, say, when do you start and how do you like to get paid.
DMG: And they looked at me like deers and I had light. And I said, Exactly, it never happens.
DMG: But that's going on inside their head.
DMG: If you have a vivid vision that's going on inside their head.
DMG: They're not aware of it, but there is that question. You know, when can you start. How do you like to get paid and your challenge is to find that in their head somehow and get them to ask it.
DMG: So let's reverse engineer from that which never happens. And then we brainstem. Well, what would cause one of your potential customers.
DMG: If you're providing a service to say, when can you start. How do you like to get paid. And that article also talks about the red zone.
DMG: Well, they would say that if what they hear from you. They say, this is really relevant to my success. This is going to make me close more deals. This is going to make me, you know, grow my business, this will really work. I'll make me effective and cheese. This is doable. I can do this.
DMG: Mm-hmm. And so that's how it leads into that.
WS: Yeah. So what I tell my clients was like you know you're doing it right when the prospect says, Okay, how can we start
DMG: Absolutely.
WS: How do we start. It's like
WS: Not a sale.
WS: Right. They're asking how can I start. So you tell you know and
WS: Ideally, like you've done everything right. To begin with, again you prove your different by being different, you're different from the beginning, are different, how you
WS: Open the meeting.
WS: set an agenda for the meeting, how you conduct yourself. And they're like, it just feels right and I just they're ready to start, you know, because that that
WS: That hurt and rescue you just
DMG: You've done that dance.
WS: Because I tell people all the time making my
WS: My dirty little secret is, I hate sales.
WS: I don't like the whole tit for tat and alternative choice clothes and tough negotiation like I just wanted to buy from me and I wanted to buy. Again, I want to tell their friends and
Family
WS: I don't want this combative thing haha got them right
DMG: So, so something else, because you just triggered something else up
DMG: I think. Yeah. Look, I guess they'll always be a need for sales, but I think there's a possibility that if marketing is done well.
DMG: It could eliminate the sales profession because it would just if marketing is done so well that you become just order takers. Think of the Apple Store.
DMG: And so the key is, if you're in sales, if you can identify if you can drill down into LinkedIn or if you can talk to your company and say what urgent unmet need, is our product, a service a solution. It has to be urgent has to be unmet and unsolved. So if you can identify and target market.
DMG: Whoever has an urgent.
DMG: Critical to their success unmet need, once you identify them.
DMG: You can actually have a conversation and say, you know, I've been checking your company. I've been checking what you do. I've been. I've been reading what your CEO says, I've been reading such and such. And as I read the tea leaves, I've identified what appears to be an urgent critical
DMG: unmet need that you don't have a solution to
WS: Mm-hmm.
DMG: And if I'm off, you know, can you tell me how I'm off. But if in someone's head. They say it's kind of like what you said about the hurt.
DMG: You know, that's exactly right. So the more you show a little due diligence, as opposed to shotgunning something, the more confidence, you'll have because
DMG: And you should do this to your ask your sales manager, you know, what is an urgent critical unmet need that our product or service solves. Mm-hmm. Let's find the people that have that
WS: Yeah, reminded me of. I've always said great selling are great, great marketing makes selling easy
WS: But great selling makes great marketing possible
DMG: Mm-hmm.
WS: So I think at the core, I always say marketing is just selling in print.
WS: Mm-hmm. Right.
WS: You got that the marketing has to you kind of know those unmet needs. You got to know those fears and certainly the doubt and the marketing that movie they perk up they
WS: Put in front of them, they recognize how it's speaking to me you know that's marketing that's sales, you know, and. But at a minimum.
WS: Even if you know the argument is, that's just, that's just marketing, you need the money to pay for it which means you sold something so you had some great sales.
WS: You were smart with your money. Now, you put it in the great market either way.
WS: Like about my old CEO say sales is the straw that stirs the drink.
DMG: West. I love these old west isms.
DMG: Cool.
WS: Oh, we could go forever. BUT IT'S LABOR DAY. And my wife's giving me the
DMG: Nice.
WS: Little barbecue got a fire a little impromptu family gathering
WS: But I have pages of notes, links to all over my wake up call podcast.
WS: Man.
DMG: So I'm gonna leave. I'm going to leave you with a one tip for entrepreneurs, because
WS: Okay.
DMG: I did this thing where I played Steve Jobs this coming back from the dead. And so if you're an entrepreneur and you want to think like Ilan musk
DMG: And one of the reasons I did. I played Steve Jobs coming back from the dead, did it for about a year. But that was a few years ago.
DMG: Was to tee up. This is the formula if you're an entrepreneur. And if you're a chief marketing officer marketing. This is the formula, they think
DMG: And think of when Steve Jobs would introduce a new product or think of when Ilan musk talks about a new Tesla, what you want to create in all your marketing materials is Whoa, wow, huh. Yes.
DMG: What what that stands for is, whoa, I can't believe what I just saw her to read so that breaks into people's add and distraction and you know you've created. Whoa. When people say, Could you say that again.
DMG: If you're talking to an audience someone, you know, elbows, the person. What did he say, What did she say so. Whoa, is I can't believe what I just saw her read, wow, is that's astonishing. Amazing. Unbelievable.
DMG: Hmm. Is this is too good to not use. I don't know how we're going to use it.
DMG: Yes, I figured out how to use it sold
DMG: So part of the consulting and for years, what we call that was how do you create gotta have it because if someone says, I gotta have it. You don't have to sell them and the secret to creating gotta have it.
DMG: Is and just think of, you know, and Elon Musk shows a new Tesla. Oh, and Steve Jobs would show a new thing. You go, wow. Wow. Huh.
DMG: Yes.
DMG: There you go, go, go.
WS: Go gorilla that
DMG: Go grill up with still girl something that's bad for your health. Go on.
WS: Hey. Hey.
WS: You can appreciate this. It's good for my mental health. Right. And that's, that's probably more important than my physical health because it impacts my physical health.
DMG: Well, you do the fun crowd, man. That'll be good for your mental health because you'll, you'll say, oh my god, I am telling you it will it will change your life.
WS: Very nice. All right, so like I said I'm linking to your staff have pulled up links to your books just listen discover the secret to getting through to absolutely anyone talking to crazy
WS: Coming out in December. Right. I was looking it up as you were talking why cope when you can heal how healthcare heroes of cover 19 can recover from PTSD.
WS: So it looks like they can maybe even pre-order it. Now is that true
DMG: Yeah I know they can pre
DMG: And we're going to have a lot of goodies for the pre-order you know tools that they can use an eccentric cetera, okay.
WS: Sounds good. So make sure I got the link for that and I'll include here and the notes, but
WS: I appreciate you coming on, you're in LA. So if you come wine tasting and to make you let me know. We'll have you out.
DMG: We're absolutely going to do this and I'm going to stop by the way, in the next few weeks. I'm going to have a weekly LinkedIn live stream show and you're going to be a regular guest.
WS: Oh, nice. Sounds good.
DMG: Sounds good to me too.
WS: I love it. All right. Dr. Mark Goulston thanks for coming on the show. It's been great.
DMG: This is cool. This is good. Thank you. Well, thanks. Thanks for giving me a long enough leash and not deleting me
WS: All right, well, have a great day.
DMG: You too, man.